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2019 Rules Thread
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TOPIC: 2019 Rules Thread

Re: 2019 Rules Thread 1 year, 10 months ago #22191

  • john78
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  • Drivers Ed
  • Posts: 8
Hi - John N here, belatedly clued into this topic. My 2 cents is that fewer changes is best, and things like aftermarket pistons, harnesses and wheels should be deferred til there the need is clear, and there is orderly consensus on how to address. I do not see time allowing for that.

I am not technically competent enough to comment on the sleeve and piston issue but do note that it is a complex and contentious topic that does not lend itself to a graceful decision in a compressed timeframe. It seems better to defer it to next year to allow more evaluation. The wheel availability seems sufficient for now, as allowing non OEM wheels will need a lot of little rules. So I suggest deferring it. I also lack room for a battery in the footwell, and very lightweight batteries mitigate the value of moving it, so I am not feeling it is a need-driven change. The harness issue needs more info on how widespread a problem it is and what are the options to address it that may not necessitate a rule change. The suspension blocks seem to be a contentious topic that warrants more dialogue perhaps?

Airdams are scarce and for me, sadly, often needed. Options seem good to me but I was unclear on consensus there.

Re: 2019 Rules Thread 1 year, 10 months ago #22192

If I had to vote TODAY about allowing engine modifications, even in the spirit of reliability with no performance gain, I would vote NO.

That said, I think pistons/sleeving are definitely worth exploring in much more detail with more research and shared facts that we can eventually all agree upon. It sounds like we all love the spirit of the class, and I feel grateful that so many have been willing to keep it pure for value-competitive racing. It seems that if one chooses to spend the time and money on an aftermarket engine build, and that build has little or no difference in total HP OR power curve, then it's worth serious consideration. If I could spend a few thousand dollars on a near bullet-proof engine, I probably would. It seems that we don't agree that HP and curve can be spec'd or enforced. I do agree with some of the other comments in that cheaters will cheat regardless of what rules are opened up.

I think we all agree that aftermarket parts will one day be necessary to keep the class alive. We're not there today, but maybe we're closer than we think.

Re: 2019 Rules Thread 1 year, 10 months ago #22193

  • Manuel_M
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  • Junior Racer
  • Posts: 65
To clarify my position, as a quasi engine builder, I'd prefer new pistons (1 to 1 copy of 88'). It took me until last year's rule thread to get a set of 88' pistons (Which Tim graciously sold me). I had been searching for around a year. Now that I have a set, I'm not as passionate about the topic.

On a second note, I'd also like to see more data on the topic. From my limited experience, my LC engine makes the 140 but gets there via 135hp + 145TQ / 2 = 140. And that is using all the tricks in the book (10w/40 oil, min shaved head, adjusting A/F, etc.). Seems to be easier to hit the # with the HC pistons and the HP and TQ are more balanced. Again, only my experience and people with 130HP can beat me all day long . I'm about to build my 3rd engine (not sure why) so interested to see how this shakes out.

Re: 2019 Rules Thread 1 year, 10 months ago #22194

  • cbuzzetti
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  • Endurance Racer
  • 944 Spec = The best racing on the planet
  • Posts: 1192
I would love to have a 135/145 motor. Mine have always been very close to the same number in HP/TQ.
2018 NASA 944Spec National Champ
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2016 NASA PTD-944 WSC P2
2015 NASA GTS1 Western Champion
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2013 NASA 944Spec So-Cal Regional Champion
2013 NASA 944Spec National P3
2010 NASA GTS-1 National Champion
2010 NASA 944Spec National P3
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2009 NASA 944Spec National Champion

Re: 2019 Rules Thread 1 year, 10 months ago #22195

  • dpRacing Dan
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  • Moderator
  • 944 Spec National Director
  • Posts: 145
Thank you everyone who participated in this years discussion!
Im happy to see more members participating

Its great to get input from all corners of the country.

Despite the pretty clearly opposing camps on the motor situation, I'm glad this conversation played out the way it did.

I'm glad the guys with the most experience in this class (Charlie & Tim) were able to chime in.

Let me give my analysis and reasoning here on how the 2019 rules are going to look.

KBD Bumpers are going to be made legal. There are more details that are coming soon- but I've been talking with the owner of the company and looking forward to releasing info about this early next week.

Rims: No huge or request for these. Lets not complicate it. Factory only.

Shifter: This will remain the same as it is.

Battery Relocation: I dont see a big enough reason to allow this right now. Most people run their cool suits on the pass floor. This wouldnt be a very expensive allowance, but I'm not sure its worth the trouble right now. I'd be open to discussion about this for future though.

Caster Camber plates: Fabricated plates that allow huge amounts of caster or camber compared to all the off-the shelf plates will be prohibited. There are plenty of off the shelf plates that are comparable. This is a spec series, which is designed to prove who's the best driver using equal equipment.

Sleeving & Aftermarket Pistons:

Blocks are starting to become difficult to find in good condition. Its not anywhere near impossible, but even I'm finding it may take a few mediocre ones to find a good one.
Sleeving is an expensive process. It will require boring, and heating, and installation, plus possibly plating of other components etc.
Pistons. In my humble opinion, everyone is obsessed with these 88 pistons. It's silly. I've never won a national on a HC motor. My Pinetree LC motor lasted 7 full seasons with 3 endurance seasons and made 139hp its final season. The car I just got 2nd at COTA in dyno'd 129hp. There are PLENTY of good pistons out there. Also. I dont see pistons being a failure point. #2 bearings fail. Not pistons. So the fact that they're 30 years old seems irrelevant to me.
However. I am not oblivious to the fact that we are losing many blocks to scoring.
Here's my plan.
I believe we need to have a 944 Spec Piston, or pistons created specifically for our series. These should be available in 100, and 100.5 mm bores. My goal is to have sets developed specifically for our series, possibly with clear mark/labeling to ease inspection. The 100.5mm would allow for overboring to a spec measurement.
The upside to creating proprietary spec parts is that not only we control our standard as best as possible, but tracking who has actually bought the parts is easier too.
I'm sure many of you will be disappointed by this- but realize that although I recognize this issue is a legit problem, we dont yet have a perfect solution in place to solve it. I will work hard this upcoming year to come up with the optimal solution.
The following user(s) said Thank You: reflexr

Re: 2019 Rules Thread 1 year, 10 months ago #22196

  • reflexr
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  • Senior Racer
  • Posts: 152
So I’m assuming no change on the rear coil-overs then? Lol.

I have often wondered how the racing would be if it was a pure stock series with brake pads, bushings and shocks/ springs the only changeable parts. Obviously it would have to allow for upgrades to shifters, DME and fuel rails, as we have now for reliability and safety. But no CC plates or adjustable sway bars. Along with deletion of all things that make it street legal(you know, smog equip. extra wiring, that kinda stuff).

I have often wondered.
Joey Genitempo
NASA SoCal
No. 42
88 944 Spec- Blue Camouflage- retired
84 944 Spec- Green- 42
84 944 Spec- Yellow- 24
87 944 Spec-
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