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TOPIC: Cheating?

Cheating? 6 years, 10 months ago #15594

  • rd7839
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  • Endurance Racer
  • Posts: 625
After weighing my car and finding it a few pounds under the limit(it was low on fuel and without the coolshirt in). I added more ballast in the passenger footwell and made it race ready as it would come off track with the correct fuel load and full coolshirt cooler and I was 6 lbs over. Cutting it close I know and will add more ballast today but I have a question.

Sitting it my spares pile I still have a collapsible spare. I read the rules and they state that you MAY remove the spare but it doesn't say must be removed. Now in theory you can run a full interior street legal car which could include the spare. Obviously I would be using it to balance the car and get weight rearward because I can't see myself changing a flat during a race at the edge of turn 6 with my little triangle reflectors out and my scissor jack whirring away! Is this legal. I know we've split this hair before about "may" and "must" and the rules state up front that if not specifically stated then you can't do something but this is sorta covered.

If it is technically legal, is it not with the spirit of the rules?

For me it's kind of a mute point as my car is very balanced front to rear, although it's a little low in the back but i'd like to remove some steel from the passenger side and move weight back.

Re: Cheating? 6 years, 10 months ago #15596

This is not to answer if a spare is legal or not. But more of a corner balancing comment. Having weight hanging in front the front wheels or weight behind the rear wheels I don't think is an advantage even with the numbers on your scales showing it as a good thing. I am pretty sure keeping the weight as low as possible and between the wheel base is optimum. The cc&r does specify where to put the weight and is actually a good place for it. If you need weight and do not have the heavier early starter, that is one of the best places to have extra weight.

What do you corner balancing experts think?
Norman #99

Re: Cheating? 6 years, 10 months ago #15598

  • ioport
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  • Comp School
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Ron, if it says you may remove the spare tire, then you may KEEP the tire in. It will also provide you with increased safety if installed correctly. Since you may also remove the spare tire well, I would suspect that you can not do both. Meaning, you must keep the spare tire in the original location. With all this said, I agree with Norman, you probably do not want to put your weight that far to the rear.
Ken Myers
I/O Port Racing Supplies

Re: Cheating? 6 years, 10 months ago #15599

  • cbuzzetti
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  • Endurance Racer
  • 944 Spec = The best racing on the planet
  • Posts: 1190
My personal experience with rear weighting the car with fuel if the car is oversteering has been positive. I use this if I am having an oversteering problem. This usually happens at Cal Speed for some reason. The fuel tank is not in front of the rear wheels but it solves the problem.
I also feel that there are NO drivers in Spec or any amature series for that matter who has enough driving talent (being able to drive near perfect laps) that wheel weight, over hanging weight etc. will make any difference at all.
If you have ever done any data aquisition you know what I am talking about. As drivers we make so many small to medium mistakes that all the other stuff is inconsequential. Including a 10 HP difference. That is my personal opinion but I will share it anyways

My take on the spare tire is that it is legal to have in the car during a race as long as it is fastened. I would add an additional fastening device as well. I have often thought of using this myself. I just never had a car that came with the factory spare.

And just as a side note, a .5% deviation in scaling accuracy is 13#. I always try to hit 2620 as my minimum weight.

And yes Ron I have always considered you a cheater!!!!
2018 NASA 944Spec National Champ
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Re: Cheating? 6 years, 10 months ago #15604

  • ioport
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The reason for not putting the weight at the very ends of the car is not so much a corner balance issue as it is a pendulum issue. When the car gets to its limit of adhesion and starts to spin, the car with the most weight on the ends will likely to continue to spin. As Ron is known for spinning his car, it would seem that this is the opposite of what he should be doing. OK, I am only teasing. Usually he keeps his wheels pointed in the correct direction.

So, an amature racer may not be able to feel the difference in the handling of the car; however, the racer will be less likely to get the car out of control if the car is set up correctly. He will also be more likely to drive the car on the edge and therefore faster, if the car is set up correctly--even if it is at inconsistent times. So, the point that it is inconsequential, I have to disagree. Everything helps. And, a 10HP difference between equal drivers will make a huge difference. Don't beleive me? Look at Formula Vee. 10HP in our class is 7%! 10HP to a Sprint Cup car is only about 1% and they would kill for an extra 10HP!
Ken Myers
I/O Port Racing Supplies

Re: Cheating? 6 years, 10 months ago #15606

Hey Charlie, Thanks for sharing your experience with adding weight to the rear of your car, because me being a spec/amature driver, I would have never felt the difference!

Porsche built a fantastic car by placing the tranny and gas tank where they did. By adding weight to the spare tire well, is going to add nearly as much weight to the rear wheels as it's going to take weight away from the front wheels. Driving a neutral car is important, but setting it up for maximum gforce is also important, so I believe the physics needed to accomplish this would be adding weight between the front and rear wheels to maximize grip on both ends as opposed to increasing grip on one end and decreasing grip on the other.

My personal opinion on a well set up car especially for an amature or spec driver is that it can decrease the odds of loosing control, spinning out or what ever and can also enhance the learning curve with the confidence that a well balanced car gives. I know in AZ we have guys passing in places that they didn't before because of the confidence gained by having better traction from the RR's which is similar to having a well balanced car.

I know the easiest and shortest answer to a set up question is "it doesn't matter with your driving talent" but it wasn't that long ago that I was asking those same questions and got pretty fast by learning all that I could about set up coupled with seat time, lots of seat time!

Charlie, I sure do hope that you will place a cinder block in your spare tire well and detune your car to 128hp for nationals to prove your point
Norman #99
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