I personally have been involved with this class going back to the days before it was founded. 944-spec has never been about building a "hot" motor. It was founded on and has always been about driver ability. For that reason alone I am always keeping my eyes open for situations that may change that.

In Arizona there are no complaints about big hp motors. The fast guys are fast because they drive the wheels off their cars nothing more. Lap times over the past 5 years have been quite stable. There have been some gains, but those are quite small come down to the drivers getting more from the cars by driving harder and having a better chassis tune.

As for the talk about $2800 heads and $10k motors? That is evil rumor more than anything. Look I can build you a $3000 head. I can even take it to get the flowed by a guy who does Jaguar heads for vintage racers. You know the $500,000 Le Mans vintage racer types. I will even have it done to the rules. Just don't complain if nets you 1 hp over the standard $200 valve job.

Look you can spend 10k on motor if you want, but there is no data to support that it does a darn thing. Just talk from some guys that spend too much trying to justify his empty wallet and talk from those who don't know facts. Don't get fooled Please. Now we directors need to stay vigilent to ensure stuff like this does not actually make a power gain and so for us data is an essential tool.

Lets talk about Dirks's Motor in his championship winning car. The car was dynoed, traqmated and the head was removed and everything inspected check out legal. Just the way we expected to find it. As for power levels. It was inline with some of the top cars at nationals and auguablly less than 9.5:1 car with shaved head built by a guy in his garage. Also consider Eric's post on his latest Dyno runs.


It seems very much that the class today is just as it was in 2002. Build a reliable stock motor at home and let your driving talent get you lap times. What is different from 2002 when this started is the talent level is very high. You need to be 100% on each lap no mistakes with dialed in chassis to run at the front. You can't bring old tires, jacked up cross weights, and poor alignment and expect to do well. You have to put focus in making the car turn well and excecuting that on track. HP levels are what they have been for years.

What makes a driver turn great lap times is not hp, but getting through the corners well. Doing that is not about buying bits, but about developing as driver and developing the ablity to tune the chassis to obtain the maximum.


Frankly this why I want share data. To get the naysayers to realize power is not the key to speed in a 944-spec, handling is the key.

cbuzzetti wrote:


I don't think anyone wants to simply outlaw them (and they are clearly legal under the current rules), but yes there is an issue with them making more power than the typical 944-Spec motor, so we need to find a reasonable way to balance that out.

I do understand that some find it worthwhile to spend the extra money and go through everything to have a solid motor, so I don't disagree with most people getting Dirks engines, but it has also noticeably raised the bar, performance wise. Now more people feel like they need to build a fresh motor just to have a fair race (or in some cases, to get an advantage), which effectively adds $2-3k to our build cost and is contributing to the demise of the class. Yes, I could yank out my now perfectly reliable motor and go spend a few thousand bucks too... hell, I receive a nice annual bonus right before racing season starts, but as I've said all along, I have no intention of buying my results and that's a stupid way to spend money; I want to earn my finishing order, not buy it.

We like to say that it comes down to the drivers, and that is true to an extent, but I also see people who say that while building motors for performance reasons, so that's kind of BS too (actions speak louder than words)... A hot motor will not hand a win to someone who would otherwise finish in last place, and my nothing-special engine was still able to get some podium finishes with bent valves and severely compromised compression, but when in a close race between drivers of similar speed, engine power absolutely does matter and that's why some people are building motors.

You can only use driving skill to compensate for a guy who has a better motor when he doesn't drive consistently and is of lesser skill than you are, and that's harder to pull off when you're at a track with longer straights. Run up front with a typical junkyard 944 motor and you'll see what I mean. We're not talking about a difference of 1 hp between cars here, but rather 5-10 hp, which is a big deal when it's relative to a total of only about 130 whp.

So, build a reliable engine all you want, but expect to have any performance advantages gained from it taken away. If a skilled competitor is truly skilled, then surely he will not oppose playing on a level field and taking the class back to the "low cost, equal racing" that attracted many of us to it in the first place.

Collecting actual data will help close the gap between perception and reality, and will show us which things we need to work on balancing.




Under the current rule set, there is clearly no "problem" with his motor. But, was anyone in the top 5 not running a fresh motor? That's the real problem here... Building motors to run up front and disregarding anyone who doesn't want to play that game. There were 24 other drivers in that race, each of whom contributes to making this class what it is and deserves an equal vote. Without them, you have no class, no Nationals, no plastic trophy.

Weston wrote:


Car #7 Driven by Darren Grifith has a 2+ year old 9.5:1 piston motor, but in a a guys garage. The car is an 88, but motor was sourced a couple years ago when Darren damaged his 88 motor. So he go junkyard motor from another 944 racer. He had the motor torn down to put in fresh bearings etc and had the head done by the same guy I had 2 heads done by going back to 2003. I guess 1/2 most of the Az 944 field had head done by this guy until he retired in early 2009. In any event the motor was build for reliablity using parts on had. Darren's car also run 60-80lbs heavy. He is fast because he is a great seat of the pants driver. Heck he does not even worry about set-up too much. Even so mistake on lap 1 of championship race pushed him back from his 4th place starting position and he had to claw his way back in.

This was the same car and motor he ran in 2009 championship where he finished in the top 10. That however was his first time at Miller. Even so by Saturday he was on the pace.

Locally Darren run strong and fast, but with in upper pack here. He wins some races and not others. Just as I would expect with well driven car given out local talent level.


Look if you show up to a race with bent valves and bad compression you can't expect to do well. I built a motor 2003 using 84 block that had blown headgasket and severe coolant mixing. I damaged the number 4 cylinder try to free up the stuck piston rings in the motor. Put it back togehter using the original rings and despte the light damage at the top of #4 cylinder. I used an 87 924S head that came off the 924S motor I blew the bottom out of when I spun a bearing. The head was cleaned-up corrosion holes clean and decked to be flat only. That motor made 131 hp on a dyno in 2003. It make 134 hp on a different dyno in 2005 (with in 1 hp of Norm Hamden on the same dyno). That motor in fact made less peak hp than a 138 hp motor I saw in 2004, but make more power in the upper mid range. In any eveny that motor was sound until through 2008. By 2009 it started to get soft. The reason was 2 leaky valves from carbon build up. I found that based on a leak down test and when pulled the motor in late 2008. That is when I installed my spare motor. By 2009 Nationals that motor had 3/4 of seasons worth of racing on it.

Point is that there seems to be perception in Rocky Mountain that you need a fresh motor super motor to win. I don't believe in that at all. I do believe you will be slow with and motor that has poor compression and bad leakdown and using old plug wires and worn spark plugs. However take that old motor and fix what is wrong and you will be fine.

Don't be fooled into playing the game that you need a super motor to complete.

joepaluch wrote:


I agree with that, and I had only given that example to partially agree with your point that driver does play a large role. Mechanical damage like that gets fixed after the event. Nobody is racing with a crapped up motor and then saying that we need to slow everyone else down to give them a chance... It's just ridiculous to try to cast my statement in that light.

However, it is funny that you agree that being down on power by 10whp from the baseline due to a mechanical issue is clearly going to cause you problems, but when a good chunk of the class is up 10whp above the baseline due to a motor build, you say that's a non-issue. Sorry, but it just doesn't work that way... engine power either matters or it doesn't, and physics say that it does.




When you see multiple front-runners clearly get motored by guys with fresh engines, that is not just a perception, but a reality. I've seen this from the driver's seat, as well as from the spectator stands... Car A comes out of a corner with a clearly higher exit speed than Car B and is pulling on him, but then Car B just turns the tables and leaves him behind down the straight, even though Car A also has the benefit of being in his draft.

If you don't believe me, then put some real data to it and share it openly. Until then, there are no grounds for saying that it's a false perception. I've already seen data that says I can purchase about a second of lap time at our Pueblo track. And that's relative to the 1:50 laps that I'm currently running... It sure would be nice to break a track record, but I'm not going to piss away a few thousand bucks to do it. There's nothing "wrong" with my current motor... it's in good condition, but it just doesn't make 138+ whp. And I'm far from being the only one in this situation.

Well said Mr. Paluch!!!!

You must drive the car 100% every lap to win. The driver talent depth has gotten deeper and will continue to do so.

Bring your junkyard motor and expect to finsh mid pack. Simple as that.

Do a few small things, prepare your car properly and drive the wheels off of it and you can be at the front. You don't need the big money head or 88 pistons.

You are going to have to step up Westin. It is the future.

That said, my motor is 4 years old and came with the car when I bought it. I have since changed the head to a lower compression one so that it is not so close to the limit. It is a Milledge head and it does make less HP than the one I took off. And then I re-set my track record at Buttonwillow. Hmmm....

Must be the motor!!!

So again it seems like a RM problem. Maybe only one or two people.

Weston wrote:


Where is the data? I have not seen a thing and only hear stories. We have not issues in Arizona and I believe our region did well at Miller and could have won the champioship this year. The fact we did not had nothing to do with hp and everything to due with the fortunes of racing.